An observation of debates with anti-China fundamentalists over the Tibet issue

Since the Tibetan riot and massive media distortion began, I’ve been reading different posts, threads, essays and arguments over the Tibetan issue. When pro- and anti-China groups clash over the issue, it usually goes like this:

Anti- China (A): Free Tibet!

Pro-China (P): Tibet belongs to China, no need to free!

A: China invaded Tibet!

P: No invasion. Here is the proof…

A1: fake! it’s all commie propaganda!

A2: Invasion or not, Tibetan has the right the be free! You suppress… oppress…inhibit…Especially, you don’t have religious freedom.

P: That’s not true. Here is the facts…

A1: Liar! You people are brainwashed!

A2: Still, you don’t have human rights there! People there are poor and having a miserable life!

P: That’s not true either. Chinese Tibetans live happily there and we have very good policy and affirmative action for Chinese Tibetans, here are the evidences…

A1: Propanganda! Liars!

A2: Policy or not, there is cultural genocide in Tibet.

P: There’s no cultural genocide in Tibet, here is the evidence…

A1:Propaganda! Paid CCP agent!

A2: Still, too many Han ethnic people are there. Tibetans are soon to be assimilated.

A3: No cultural genocide? They are now living in apartments instead of tent! They wear jeans instead of traditional robes! It’s not Tibetan cultural in the past! Isn’t that cultural genocide?!

P: Not really, majority of the population is still Tibetan. Here is the proof…And yes, people wear jeans instead of robes, they also eat KFC and drink coca cola–but that kind of activities happens voluntarily.

A1: Propaganda! Never believe anything commie says.

A2: OK, riot or not, protesters may go a little bit far. But I think they meant good. DALAI is good. He has nothing to do with this.

P: Dalai has everything to do with this. Here are some of the facts…

A1: Propaganda!

A2: There is no proof about him giving the order directly! He SAID he loves peace! You government is lying and doesn’t respect the Tibetan spiritual leader!

P: He’s not the leader of all Tibetans, he’s just the leader of the Gelu sect. And there is more information about Dalai… He is not what he said he is.

A1: Propaganda!

A2: I really don’t believe these information. If you are telling the truth, how come the whole world is against you? Whatever you say, China has serious human rights problems. The whole world is pissed off.

P1: We should focus on the issues in Tibet, not China in general.

P2: We do have human rights problems, so does US.

P3: It’s not the whole world against us. it’s the world you know against us.

A1: So what? The American Natives are in the past! We now are one of the countries that best practice human rights!

P: Remember IRAQ? Hypocrite!

A2: So what? We can’t criticize you just because we claim war on IRAQ? You Chinese can criticize us too.

A3: I am against US government too. But I have freedom of speech to against Bush and you don’t.

P: It takes time to solve problem and make changes. China is making progress toward democracy. Here is some proof…

A2: You are so brainwashed. You government is pure evil and you still think it can become good.

A3: You government is evil, it…, it…, it…, it… So whatever happened in Tibet is not important, you should overthrow your government!

A1: Commies sell junks to us! Take our jobs away! Own our debts! They are polluters! Free Tibet! Free China!

Usually at this stage, pro-China people withdraw. Some anti-China people are convinced during the process. For those who can not be convinced even with mounted evidence, I call them anti-China fundamentalists. Because in the end, it’s NEVER about the benefit/human rights of Chinese, it’s simply hooraying everything against China, denouncing everything in China and ignoring voices from China. Amid all these debates, there is one question I always want to ask: Do you REALLY know or care what Chinese or Chinese Tibetans want when you shout ‘free Tibet’ or ‘free China’?

Advertisements

30 Comments

Filed under China, Fun

30 responses to “An observation of debates with anti-China fundamentalists over the Tibet issue

  1. terminatorii

    This is the best description of the argues I have seen so far. Good job!

  2. Cindy6

    Haha, this one is hilarious:) We should have more of these.

  3. mitwildthing

    I got to admire your patience in collecting these idiotic slogans shouted by political dummies or evil-minded people.

    Just about anywhere I read about this subject matter, either the main article or comment sections or both would be riddled with similar moronic comments and their variations.

  4. Dave

    The propaganda war is on and there are two sides to this coin. Point in fact for the purpose of this discussion: The Chinese media is controlled by the communist government. No question. Do they use their media to further their cause? Certainly. Who is on the other side of the coin? You may be surprised…

    http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/4/15/224155/744/780/492483

  5. Angel

    Those people used by politics as a gun are pathetic. Human right or democracy is just a mask.
    That is my first feeling after reading this thread.

  6. Huang

    Unfortunate is that all “evidence” you say is still from our China government. Do you believe government will ever allow negative evidence to exist? In this situation, both sides are wrong. But you are typical crying Chinese because you think only non-Chinese can be wrong. Such a shameful for Chinese!! So ashame that you think all information from CCP and Chinese news is true and whole truth. This make people think that Chinese are stupid ignorant people.

  7. walker

    hi Huang,

    What do you mean “all evidence is still from Chinese government”? There are tons of evidence from western scholars, western tourists, even from CIA’s own declassified documents. But the anti-China fundamentalists just choose to ignore them all.

  8. Huang

    What I mean is so much effort to argue against “anti-Chinese” critics, but most refer only to history books and teachings of government. Also ignore any negative parts of debate. Many media have very strong reason to be suspicious of CCP news about Tibet recent. Do you know why Tibeten people have violent riots? Because they try peaceful protests at first but become prisoners in jail. CCP do not allow Tibetens to have different opinion from CCP.

    Again I do not think western media is right. So much bad bias against China, I agree you are right about this. But correct response is not to use same bad logic argument against western media or western people. If we only suspicous against western people and have no questions about our own CCP, no body will think reason to believe us. This is why so many people think we ignorant about our own history.

    Also why do you use word “fundamentalists”? This word nearly always use to talk about religious ideas. This is example of your argue style. You find negative word from other context and use it here incorrectly because you goal is to say anything possible to talk bad to “anti-China” people. Instead should use effort to improve China.

  9. suqing17

    Huang,

    I have to say shame on you. It’s not because you denounce your own country and your own people to please westerners in such a shameless way (I don’t even want to point out how many false accusations, lies, and false generalizations are in your post above. I assume you didn’t do it on purpose, but simply misinformed). It is because of your pathetic ignorance and the way you present it. As walker pointed out, almost all the debates I saw used materials from non-Chinese government resources. Yet you never bother to check the facts before you make assumptions, accuse others and blab your nonsense.
    The article is simply an observation. If you ever have participated in a serious discussion, you would get your facts straighten out.
    FYI, the definition of fundamentalism: A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism. I don’t see a problem using fundamentalist to describe people who still cling to the cold war principles and ideas about China, refuse to tolerant and admit changes, and fill themselves with hatred.

  10. Huang

    No tongzhi, you are shame. I tell you why. I care about China future. I want China to fix problem and get higher. You only care to hide China problems! You are shame and you dont care if you hurt China. You can explore this idea: “confirmation bias”. This is what is called when you only accept “evidence” that support what you want to hear.

  11. realbrandon

    Hi Huang

    I believe what you said about wanting China to fix its problems, etc., but making those accusations will not accomplish that. I believe the recent oversea Chinese movement put you at odds with most of the Chinese people.

    Let me put it another way. To educate a kid, do you only point to his/her mistakes? No, that won’t work. The better way is to award the good behaviors and punish the bad.

    What you are doing will achieve exact the opposite of what you claim. Don’t even start by accusing us being brainwashed by the CCP. We can simply throw that back at your face by saying you are willingly brainwashed by the west.

    We cited numerous materials from the respected western historian. Where is your source? Just by saying that our argument is from Chinese government is not an argument. It’s more like school yard play.

    If you really care about China, be more constructive by providing some empirical facts and making some reasonable suggestions.

  12. xq1982

    Real Brandon,

    Why do you assume that Mr. Huang is poisoned by the west? A lot of Chinese feel that way, but we’re afraid to say anything in public because people like you will say they we’re not patriotic. Of course we also know what will happen to us if we try to return to China. I think you misunderstand a lot of Chinese who care very deeply about our country.

    XQ

  13. realbrandon

    Hi XQ,

    I am afraid you didn’t understand me correctly. I didn’t say that he was poisoned by the west. I said: if he can accuse us being brainwashed by the Chinese government, we can in turn simply accuse him being brainwashed by the west. What I mean is that accusing the other side being brainwashed is not a conversation starter. I hope I made my point clear to you.

    Heck, I don’t even care whether he is brainwashed or not. He is free to think whatever he wants to. Same goes for you. It’s your freedom and you are welcome to use it, but I expect the same courtesy from the other side as well.

  14. terminatorii

    Huang: “…all ‘evidence’ you say is still from our China government.”

    I do not think it is necessary to argue with Mr. Huang any more after reading his very first assertion. He needs to fix his mind first.

  15. Huang

    I give you one simple example because it can be very easy for you to find many more. You can look at UC Davis CSSF email list to see reaction to media article from Dateline magazine. Article uses interview from famous professor name Don Price. Doctor Price say some negative things about China, so all Chinese respond that he is wrong, bad source, not academic research. Do you believe this? I show you above “confirmation bias”. This mean is that you only accept evidence that support your belief but ignore evidence that is opposite of your belief. Western media do this and so do Chinese reaction. Who is better and who is worse? Both wrong.

  16. suqing17

    ha,here goes the generalization again. Mr.Huang, stop doing that, it really disgusts me. You saw something happened in UC Davis, then argue with people in UC Davis. If you saw a shred of evidence that we, people who are not from UCD, are having ‘confirmation bias’, then you may have the right to accuse us or preach your nonsense to us, otherwise, stop saying Chinese this, Chinese that, or you people are all like this, you people are all like that. Generalization requires statistical proof, if you ever take probability theory 101.
    Our opinions, is the result of logic thinking with balanced sources. It is heinous to blame us using selective sources just because we are against the western(or your?) point of view. How did you know we didn’t think over the materials YOU think is reliable? Did you know we also admit problems in China? Did you know we also reflect upon CCP policies? No, it seems that you didn’t. You only know how to preset other people’s minds. Who is ‘ confirmation biased’? You, dear Mr. Huang. The minute you start to accuse and preach to others with nothing but your guesses and generalizations out of prejudice, YOU are biased. Actually, your action is even worse than confirmation bias–it takes evidence for people to show ‘confirmation bias’, you simply pull you bias against us out of a hat called ‘everyone is wrong but me’.

  17. Pug

    They say that if a lie is repeated 100 times, the lie becomes the truth. It certainly became the case after 9/11 when Bush linked Saddam, Al Qaeda, and WMD’s. It seemed that the US is doing the same thing again by drumrolling the ‘human rights’ thing on China. China is going thru a industrial revolution and is facing the same problems that US has had in the turn in the 19th century. Because of that, they do have some social, political, and environment issues that US has had 100 years ago. There’s a pbs article about China that is really interesting which takes a neutral stance on it. http://www.pbs.org/kqed/chinainside/index.html

  18. realbrandon

    I agree with suqing17, but I will spend a little more time to share a theory with Huang, the theory of discrimination.

    My theory is that, discrimination is nothing but to generalize one or some people’s behavior into a universal symbol of what’s wrong with other race or ethnicity, while individualize the behavior of the people of ones own race or ethnicity.

    Now, Mr. Huang, reflect on that. You are not a racist and I never accuse you of that. What you are is to discriminate against your own kind, but give way too much leeway to others.

  19. RightsIsForSlave

    Why we call some those guy anti-china fundamentalists? Let’s us take a look what is the definition of fundamentalist: “Fundamentalism, in religion, refers to a belief in the infallibility, and literal interpretation, of a doctrine or holy book.” In front of mounting evidence, the infallibility of anti-china belief, qualify them as anti-china fundamentalist. Mr. Huang’s arguments are still rhetoric and dangerous exaggeration.

    Now we found in west hypocritical bigots, human rights fanatics, democracy fanatics, anti-china fundamentalists, most of these can be traced to the natural biased religion.

    Yet no one is coming to question what really is about religious freedom, human rights and democracy. The freedom farm story just makes me pondering why, we, human being, want to form society if it is only to benefit a few. Why the rest have to protect the bullies? Is it because they are the must-have warriors that protecting us from other challenges? In the end, the concept of equality that are the foundations of human rights, religious freedom and democracy is simply a mirage.

  20. Huang

    One similar to china, one difference. Similar, in china anyone who say criticism of china will be called wrong. Difference, in china we cannot have this talking because i will be put in jail or maybe be kill. Do you understand? I love china but it is wrong that only fake positive voices can speak. Criticism is not allowed and this make pretend that china have no problem. How can china ever succeed?

    You want to know why i write this? Because i meet so many chinese people who have my same idea but people afraid to speak. This is what make me feel ashame.

    You call me discriminate. You say i am traitor. I love my country and i am not afraid to say my real feeling. Of course i cannot say this same if i am in china now. Can you say why this situation?

  21. wuming

    I wish to call your attention to an extremely ugly piece of editorial on International Herald Tribune (which is essentially the international version of the New York Times)

    http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/04/21/opinion/edchina.php

  22. suqing17

    I have enough. Mr. Huang, don’t pretend you are patriotic and you are persecuted by the government or Chinese or the owner of THIS BLOG. If you want to criticize the government and vent your angers against people who called you a ‘traitor’, go to argue with those people, or establish a website/blog of your OWN to present your opinion. Coming to other people’s blog to discuss is your freedom, yet coming to accuse others without evidence or even insult others is simply atrocious. You are more like a TROLL, going around and crying for sympathy.
    BTW, don’t speak as if you are the only person who knows there is CCP propaganda and don’t act as if everyone acting in line with government this time is the result of brainwash. Again, putting yourself high above as if everybody is wrong and nobody understands you only shows how ignorant and pathetic you are. You are NOT the Messiah!
    Last, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE shut up with your stupid and rigid GENERALIZATION about what China is like. You sound more and more like those lunatic FalunGong practitioners who made up the stories about CCP uses microwave to brainwash everybody in China.
    Well, one last thing I want to add, in case some really dumb people will buy your lies. You are not here to discuss, or to show your patriotism. You are just here to USE other people’s platform to spread lies to reinforce people’s bias about ‘no freedom of speech and everybody is persecuted in China’. Look at your choice of words, ‘anyone’ will be called wrong, criticism is ‘not allowed’, you will be ‘put in jail or maybe be kill’ for some of your stupid comments (who the heck are you anyway?) . Slandering does make you feel good. If you are really serious and mean what you said about ‘loving the country’, the least you can do is to present the truth, not overly exaggerating it to get some people’s attention and sell your crap. Shame on you, not as a Chinese, but as an honest human being!

  23. Huang

    Look at such the reaction! It is exactly like in China that all negative criticism is call biased or not logical! You say i should go to argue with those people to criticize government? Please you tell me what will happen if i go to Beijing and tell CCP my ideas? Please tell me!

    My comment are directly follow from the topic of this post so why say i cannot post a respond? Only positive agree respond is allowed? Why are you so blind to not see this? Exactly the reason I make my respond.

    Suqing you are one of the true stupid people in China and you should know that many people see your shame. You are too coward to use original reasoning to discover truth and progress. This again is my fear. CCP use fear to make people accept all lies. You are example of too few brave people.

    I will not write more on this blog because you are right this is not correct location for my ideas. I hope you will consider to use your brain and think of original ideas instead of follow blind like sheep.

  24. suqing17

    Gosh, Mr. Huang. Having too many grammatic mistakes doesn’t matter, but don’t use English to argue with others if you can’t even understand others. My point is always loud and clear: you have the freedom to use this blog to discuss, you do NOT have the right to insult others. Your ‘suffer’ , ‘patriotism ‘, ‘bravery’, ‘anger against others’, ‘hatred to CCP’, ‘savior attitude’ and self-righteousness DO NOT give you the right to come here and start to accuse others without evidence. I don’t give a damn about your opinion, what pisses me off is simply the fact that you abuse your right to speak here–no evidence, plain insults and accusations caused by the government and other people who bullied you, which are totally irrelevant to this blog. If you want to retaliate, go and find the REAL target.
    You NEVER made any responses to the post itself. All you did were simply blaming “everybody is brainwashed”, “you were such a shame”, bragging how unique you are that you are the ‘FEW’ who can see the truth yet dare not to tell, and acting like a China/CCP-phobia freak.
    Thank god you won’t come back. I pity the next blogger you are going to harass–with that much anger in you, and so little courage to fight against what you really hate, all you can do is trolling through normal discussions and disgusting people.

  25. Bob

    That’s an excellent summary of the arguments, though its certainly not as explicit as a lot out there. Check out this video from the Olympic torch relay in London, and the comments that people have left… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urms_qIiL8s

    Not quite as rational or articulate as the people you’ve been reading! (Or those reading your blog, by the looks of the comments above.)

    Really enjoyed the article.

  26. Bob

    Forgot to mention that the most explicit and offensive comments on the youtube link above are always removed, though they do keep appearing again! Sorry if you were hoping for some foul language 😉

  27. Angel

    Huang, are you sure you are not using double criteria when you targeting some people and exagerating thing?
    You could not reach any objective and general view until you calm down.
    Bless you.

  28. terminator

    Just take a look at Huang’s first sentence, you can get the conclusion: either he does not know anything about logic, or he does not know how to express his ideas logically in English. I hope at least he can speaks logically in Chinese.

  29. humbleguest

    Good post by New Voice.

    For Huang (if you decide to return), may I suggest that you read the following extended debate between M.A.Jones (an Australian) and “TibetanPhotoProject”. In my opinion, Mr. Jones wins the debate, and he relies primarily on Western scholarly or authoritative sources.

    http://discussions.pbs.org/viewtopic.pbs?t=68073

    In my view, this debate illustrates the hollowness and lack of empirical foundation to many of the “free tibet” arguments.

    Of course you are free to disagree.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s